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chuckroMovie was great, wrapped up things nicely, wasn’t a bloated mess, blah blah blah.
So, I was thinking about the way time travel is presented (big shock there), and realized there are two possible outcomes of everything in this movie, with one being much more likely than the other: Either the timeline heals, or the timeline branches. (Normally, the timeline changing would also be an option, but they explicitly rule that out.)
The movie seems to imply (primarily from Bruce’s conversation with the Ancient One) that if you change the past, it creates a branch timeline from that point on and your original timeline is unchanged. The implication given is that by returning the stones (so that the past “isn’t really changed”) those branches don’t happen—i.e., given a small enough change, the timeline just “papers over” the differences and doesn’t branch.
IF THAT WERE THE CASE, then returning the Infinity stones (and Thor’s hammer) eliminates branches where they didn’t exist; also Tony’s father doesn’t take anything away from their conversation, Cap’s deception of the Hydra agents is written off as Loki’s work, etc. Then Steve can take “the slow path” back to the present by meeting Peggy in the late 40s (after he was safely in the ice), becoming the unnamed husband she historically had, and staying out of history’s way until he walked to the bench to give Sam the shield. This is neat from a storytelling perspective because it doesn’t leave loose ends, but unsatisfactory to many from a character perspective. Also, the logic of it really falls apart if you think about it too hard, because if you cannot change your past, then you shouldn’t be able to have changed your past and created the world you know.
So we’re left with a situation where the movie actually creates six branches off the main timeline:
• A timeline that branches in 1970 where Howard Stark takes a slightly different attitude as a father; Pym freaks out because someone stole several vials of his particles, and SHIELD ramps up security after they realize the Tesseract was missing for several hours. (Then somebody freaks out when they see a picture of Steve Rogers and realize he was the thief.)
• A timeline that branches in 2012 where Loki escapes with the Tesseract, Hydra believes that Captain America is either one of them or on to them, Tony’s heart is in worse shape, and the Mind and Time stones were briefly borrowed. (Returning those stones doesn’t prevent the branch, but it does eliminate the possibility of a branch where Dorammu destroys Earth because the Time stone is missing.)
• A timeline that branches in 2014 Asgard where Frigga has foreknowledge of her death, and the Reality stone is briefly separated from and then returned to Jane.
• A timeline that branches in 2014 where Thanos and his army disappear entirely, which radically changes the events of Guardians of the Galaxy and most movies that follow. Without Gamora there, Quinn might escape with the Orb or might die trying to fight Ronan, but either way, he never attracts Ego’s attention. Thor doesn’t have a vision and that might change the course of Civil War. And then, of course, Infinity War doesn’t happen at all.
• A timeline where Clint’s son’s baseball glove goes missing one random morning.
• And finally, the “Steve Rogers Saves Everything” timeline: After returning the stones and Mjolnir, Steve jumps back to 1945, right after he crashes in the ice, and meets Peggy for their dance. Armed with full knowledge of history from SHIELD’s files, he prevents Hydra’s infiltration from the start. He saves Bucky before Bucky ever goes into the freezer. He convinces Howard to be a better father to Tony. He can forewarn Thor about Loki and prevent the battle of New York (and a host of other problems). He’d probably let Carol’s origin happen, because then he can send her to kill Thanos before Thanos even realizes Earth exists. He defrosts his younger self to have a new life and carry on the fight. And then, when he reaches 2023 and realizes that he left the shit timeline behind but still in existence, he dons the time-travel suit one more time, and brings Sam the shield and the mantle, to do just a little more good before he dies of old age.
So, I was thinking about the way time travel is presented (big shock there), and realized there are two possible outcomes of everything in this movie, with one being much more likely than the other: Either the timeline heals, or the timeline branches. (Normally, the timeline changing would also be an option, but they explicitly rule that out.)
The movie seems to imply (primarily from Bruce’s conversation with the Ancient One) that if you change the past, it creates a branch timeline from that point on and your original timeline is unchanged. The implication given is that by returning the stones (so that the past “isn’t really changed”) those branches don’t happen—i.e., given a small enough change, the timeline just “papers over” the differences and doesn’t branch.
IF THAT WERE THE CASE, then returning the Infinity stones (and Thor’s hammer) eliminates branches where they didn’t exist; also Tony’s father doesn’t take anything away from their conversation, Cap’s deception of the Hydra agents is written off as Loki’s work, etc. Then Steve can take “the slow path” back to the present by meeting Peggy in the late 40s (after he was safely in the ice), becoming the unnamed husband she historically had, and staying out of history’s way until he walked to the bench to give Sam the shield. This is neat from a storytelling perspective because it doesn’t leave loose ends, but unsatisfactory to many from a character perspective. Also, the logic of it really falls apart if you think about it too hard, because if you cannot change your past, then you shouldn’t be able to have changed your past and created the world you know.
So we’re left with a situation where the movie actually creates six branches off the main timeline:
• A timeline that branches in 1970 where Howard Stark takes a slightly different attitude as a father; Pym freaks out because someone stole several vials of his particles, and SHIELD ramps up security after they realize the Tesseract was missing for several hours. (Then somebody freaks out when they see a picture of Steve Rogers and realize he was the thief.)
• A timeline that branches in 2012 where Loki escapes with the Tesseract, Hydra believes that Captain America is either one of them or on to them, Tony’s heart is in worse shape, and the Mind and Time stones were briefly borrowed. (Returning those stones doesn’t prevent the branch, but it does eliminate the possibility of a branch where Dorammu destroys Earth because the Time stone is missing.)
• A timeline that branches in 2014 Asgard where Frigga has foreknowledge of her death, and the Reality stone is briefly separated from and then returned to Jane.
• A timeline that branches in 2014 where Thanos and his army disappear entirely, which radically changes the events of Guardians of the Galaxy and most movies that follow. Without Gamora there, Quinn might escape with the Orb or might die trying to fight Ronan, but either way, he never attracts Ego’s attention. Thor doesn’t have a vision and that might change the course of Civil War. And then, of course, Infinity War doesn’t happen at all.
• A timeline where Clint’s son’s baseball glove goes missing one random morning.
• And finally, the “Steve Rogers Saves Everything” timeline: After returning the stones and Mjolnir, Steve jumps back to 1945, right after he crashes in the ice, and meets Peggy for their dance. Armed with full knowledge of history from SHIELD’s files, he prevents Hydra’s infiltration from the start. He saves Bucky before Bucky ever goes into the freezer. He convinces Howard to be a better father to Tony. He can forewarn Thor about Loki and prevent the battle of New York (and a host of other problems). He’d probably let Carol’s origin happen, because then he can send her to kill Thanos before Thanos even realizes Earth exists. He defrosts his younger self to have a new life and carry on the fight. And then, when he reaches 2023 and realizes that he left the shit timeline behind but still in existence, he dons the time-travel suit one more time, and brings Sam the shield and the mantle, to do just a little more good before he dies of old age.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-10 02:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-13 04:14 am (UTC)Also, I came up with something very similar to that timeline, all on my own, though mine was a little less well thought-out. so that made me feel pretty good about myself. :)