Suikoden 3
Jan. 4th, 2012 04:46 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
chuckroThe Glassland tribes and the Zexen Confederacy have come to an uneasy truce, but enemies within and without quickly shatter that to bring about a complex and diabolical plot. Rival protagonists Hugo, Chris, Geddoe and Thomas must uncover the mystery of the legendary Flame Champion and gather the 108 Stars of Destiny before it’s too late.
I love Suikoden and Suikoden 2, and Suikoden 5 (which returned to the series roots in a lot of ways) was also pretty great. Despite having owned Suikoden 3 since around the time it came out, I never made it through the game before now. I started play-throughs twice and hadn’t made it past the second chapter. That’s not the fault of the plot. The plot is engrossing and well-presented: They give you three different protagonists that you switch between and get to see the same events from several different angles. (It’s like the dual protagonists of Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits, only better.) Despite having a huge number of named characters, they develop a lot of them really well. Having the four leaders means you have a reason to use more of the 108 characters in your active, six-person party; and you get a lot more face-time with each of them.
My problems with the game are pretty much all in the system, and the changes it makes from the earlier games. It bugs me for a lot of reasons:
Visuals: Just because you can use 3-D doesn’t mean you should. You don’t actually have control of the camera, and the viewpoint angle changes oddly in a lot of places (sometimes suddenly shifting so you were walking “down” but now pressing down causes you to walk back where you came from). The dungeon areas are all very pretty, but any one with multiple screens is built with the same tileset and gets repetitive fast. (Not to mention the “overworld” areas you need to pass through dozens of times.)
Combat: You have six characters in your party (like the other good Suikoden games) but in this system, they’re paired and each pair can only be given one command. Which means you can’t pair up spellcasters if you want them both to be useful. Also, many spells require more than one turn to cast, so you have to confirm “chanting” for each subsequent round. Oh, and many of those spells (including the very powerful rune your protagonist gets) have friendly fire and you can’t specifically move your allies around the battlefield, so you can easily fry your own melee attackers.
Travel: They eliminated the classic world map, but instead there are dungeon-like plains, forests and mountains between towns. Which means that all the time you save not having to run across the overworld (particularly when trying to recruit the 108 characters) you lose running through these areas. You don’t get the teleporter until chapter 4 (about three-quarters of the way through the game, depending on when you do your recruiting) and she’s unavailable for chunks of chapter 5. If I never have to run across those plains again, it’ll be too soon.
Grinding: Suikoden’s experience system is well-designed for a game with 108 characters and only 6 active party members at a time; but it relies on you always having a “crutch character” to get you through the first few battles in a new area. That is, you need 1,000 XP to reach any level, and you get more from a battle the weaker you are when compared to the enemies. So if you bring a party of five level 10 characters and a level 1 character into battle, the level 1 character will get much more XP, and if the dungeon is level 10-appropriate, he might jump up to level 5 or 6 from just that one battle. This allows characters you haven’t used in a while (or at all) to catch up to the main party in 4-6 battles, significantly reducing grinding time. The other games usually allow you to use your main character and one or two sidekicks as the crutch characters (to let low-level characters survive the 4-6 battles to get them up to speed, and also as optimal choices to spend your limited equipment budget on). The problem in Suikoden 3 is that the four different parties are entirely separate, which means you have to grind without crutch characters four times, and for the first few chapters you don’t see enough level disparity among your parties to make good use of the catch-up system.
To make it somewhat less boring to level up your separate parties, they added “Treasure bosses” to most of the dungeons. In most non-story-critical areas, there are large, visible monsters than regenerate and have random chests of stuff each time you beat them. The thing is, because these pseudo-sidequests don’t fit into the story at all, this really just plays as filler that you have to do over and over. Also, you have a limited inventory and relatively low money cap (compared to what it costs to outfit your characters with top-level equipment) that doesn’t transfer between parties until they meet up.
The system changes that I like:
Skills: This game saw the beginning of the skill system, where characters earn skill points that make them better fighters, mages, what-have-you. It was improved in later games, but still I appreciate the added customization aspect and that characters got skill points from battles even if they were at max level for an area, so there was a benefit to having a high-low level party mix and to fighting weak enemies as you passed through old areas.
Treasure: This is just an aesthetic thing, but instead of random treasure chests, there are either herbs that grow and can be picked, or corpses you can loot for gear (that some characters will refuse to do). It’s a bit easier on my suspension of disbelief, and given the abundance of battles that happen during the game, a preponderance of corpses isn’t really unexpected.
Recruiting: This was the biggest improvement for me, that I’m sad they went back on later in the series. There aren’t really any “missable” recruitable characters, a major change from the first two games. Up until the last battle, there’s only one group of characters (who you get during a story event in the last chapter by not being an asshole) who you can’t still retrieve. The emphasis is more on which party you recruit each character with so you can use them before everyone comes together in Chapter 4. I really liked this, because it meant not needing to follow along with a walkthrough as I played if I wanted to get the special extra chapter that unlocks if you get all the stars. I only needed to consult a FAQ to get about 20 of them, and half of those I probably could have found through trial and error if I was more patient.
Regarding the stories (SPOILERS HERE!)
Of the four "main character" stories in Suikoden 3, I think I enjoyed Thomas' the most. He's not a warrior like the rest of the characters, and he's not really a classic leader type, but he wins the affection of the people around him and then they don't want to see him go, and it's got the teenage power-of-friendship thing that I tend to be a sap for. It makes me actually want to go hunt up Thomas/Cecile fic. The fact that it emphasizes what an ass Thomas’s absentee father is and involves greedy assholes getting a clever legalistic comeuppance helps, too.
I made Hugo the Flame Champion, because that’s the “canon” choice and in theory the most story-appropriate one, but in retrospect, I should have picked Chris. Suikoden heroes are typically in the mold of the young boy with some fighting skill thrust into a situation beyond his abilities and endowed with great power, who rises to the challenge via the power of friendship. That’s totally Hugo. Geddoe, as the world-weary hero of the previous generation with a preexisting band of longtime dedicated companions, is better suited for a lieutenant role regardless. He never struck me as the type to step up to be the Flame Champion, especially given that he was already carrying a True Rune. Chris really was the most logical choice, though: The silver maiden is already a well-established leader which she earned through talent, hard work and dedication. The grasslanders follow Hugo because of who his mother is; the knights follow Chris because of who she is.
Regarding the ending: Luc really is “Woobie, destroyer of worlds,” isn’t he? (The bonus chapter from his viewpoint really makes a lot of things clear.) He’s a clone created to hold a True Rune on behalf of the Harmonian high priest, gifted with visions of world-wide conflict leading to a sterile and lifeless future, and driven to attempting suicide-by-genocide by destroying his rune. The really sad part is that his desperate attempt to screw destiny is obviously exactly what he’s destined to do—if he just wanted to by free of the rune (and associated immortality), he could give it away or seal it. If he wanted to die, the rune doesn’t protect him from death via violence. And if he really wanted to protect the world from the future he foresaw, he could have told people about it. Really, his motivations don’t make logical sense. He was being driven on irrational emotion (depression, really) by the true runes as part of their machinations, to bring together the stars of destiny and shape events in Zexen, the Grasslands and Harmonia. Which makes me wonder if the future he saw was a lie; how much of a struggle there actually is among the true runes (there could be two sides, 27 sides, more than 27 sides when you consider the fragmented true runes, or no sides at all); and how much agency humans in the Suikoden world have, even when the 108 stars of destiny come together.
Overall: Bolster your patience and play this game. Actually, if you’re new to the series, I think you should play 1, 2, 3 and 5 in order. The game system is generally fun and a bit of variety from standard rpg fare; the characters are interesting and often well-developed (especially if you have a favorite and want to read fanfic—there’s a lot of Suikoden minor character fanfic); and the overall plots and world-building are pretty awesome. (Just bring a walkthrough if you want the best endings. Some of the 108 stars of destiny hide really well.)
I love Suikoden and Suikoden 2, and Suikoden 5 (which returned to the series roots in a lot of ways) was also pretty great. Despite having owned Suikoden 3 since around the time it came out, I never made it through the game before now. I started play-throughs twice and hadn’t made it past the second chapter. That’s not the fault of the plot. The plot is engrossing and well-presented: They give you three different protagonists that you switch between and get to see the same events from several different angles. (It’s like the dual protagonists of Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits, only better.) Despite having a huge number of named characters, they develop a lot of them really well. Having the four leaders means you have a reason to use more of the 108 characters in your active, six-person party; and you get a lot more face-time with each of them.
My problems with the game are pretty much all in the system, and the changes it makes from the earlier games. It bugs me for a lot of reasons:
Visuals: Just because you can use 3-D doesn’t mean you should. You don’t actually have control of the camera, and the viewpoint angle changes oddly in a lot of places (sometimes suddenly shifting so you were walking “down” but now pressing down causes you to walk back where you came from). The dungeon areas are all very pretty, but any one with multiple screens is built with the same tileset and gets repetitive fast. (Not to mention the “overworld” areas you need to pass through dozens of times.)
Combat: You have six characters in your party (like the other good Suikoden games) but in this system, they’re paired and each pair can only be given one command. Which means you can’t pair up spellcasters if you want them both to be useful. Also, many spells require more than one turn to cast, so you have to confirm “chanting” for each subsequent round. Oh, and many of those spells (including the very powerful rune your protagonist gets) have friendly fire and you can’t specifically move your allies around the battlefield, so you can easily fry your own melee attackers.
Travel: They eliminated the classic world map, but instead there are dungeon-like plains, forests and mountains between towns. Which means that all the time you save not having to run across the overworld (particularly when trying to recruit the 108 characters) you lose running through these areas. You don’t get the teleporter until chapter 4 (about three-quarters of the way through the game, depending on when you do your recruiting) and she’s unavailable for chunks of chapter 5. If I never have to run across those plains again, it’ll be too soon.
Grinding: Suikoden’s experience system is well-designed for a game with 108 characters and only 6 active party members at a time; but it relies on you always having a “crutch character” to get you through the first few battles in a new area. That is, you need 1,000 XP to reach any level, and you get more from a battle the weaker you are when compared to the enemies. So if you bring a party of five level 10 characters and a level 1 character into battle, the level 1 character will get much more XP, and if the dungeon is level 10-appropriate, he might jump up to level 5 or 6 from just that one battle. This allows characters you haven’t used in a while (or at all) to catch up to the main party in 4-6 battles, significantly reducing grinding time. The other games usually allow you to use your main character and one or two sidekicks as the crutch characters (to let low-level characters survive the 4-6 battles to get them up to speed, and also as optimal choices to spend your limited equipment budget on). The problem in Suikoden 3 is that the four different parties are entirely separate, which means you have to grind without crutch characters four times, and for the first few chapters you don’t see enough level disparity among your parties to make good use of the catch-up system.
To make it somewhat less boring to level up your separate parties, they added “Treasure bosses” to most of the dungeons. In most non-story-critical areas, there are large, visible monsters than regenerate and have random chests of stuff each time you beat them. The thing is, because these pseudo-sidequests don’t fit into the story at all, this really just plays as filler that you have to do over and over. Also, you have a limited inventory and relatively low money cap (compared to what it costs to outfit your characters with top-level equipment) that doesn’t transfer between parties until they meet up.
The system changes that I like:
Skills: This game saw the beginning of the skill system, where characters earn skill points that make them better fighters, mages, what-have-you. It was improved in later games, but still I appreciate the added customization aspect and that characters got skill points from battles even if they were at max level for an area, so there was a benefit to having a high-low level party mix and to fighting weak enemies as you passed through old areas.
Treasure: This is just an aesthetic thing, but instead of random treasure chests, there are either herbs that grow and can be picked, or corpses you can loot for gear (that some characters will refuse to do). It’s a bit easier on my suspension of disbelief, and given the abundance of battles that happen during the game, a preponderance of corpses isn’t really unexpected.
Recruiting: This was the biggest improvement for me, that I’m sad they went back on later in the series. There aren’t really any “missable” recruitable characters, a major change from the first two games. Up until the last battle, there’s only one group of characters (who you get during a story event in the last chapter by not being an asshole) who you can’t still retrieve. The emphasis is more on which party you recruit each character with so you can use them before everyone comes together in Chapter 4. I really liked this, because it meant not needing to follow along with a walkthrough as I played if I wanted to get the special extra chapter that unlocks if you get all the stars. I only needed to consult a FAQ to get about 20 of them, and half of those I probably could have found through trial and error if I was more patient.
Regarding the stories (SPOILERS HERE!)
Of the four "main character" stories in Suikoden 3, I think I enjoyed Thomas' the most. He's not a warrior like the rest of the characters, and he's not really a classic leader type, but he wins the affection of the people around him and then they don't want to see him go, and it's got the teenage power-of-friendship thing that I tend to be a sap for. It makes me actually want to go hunt up Thomas/Cecile fic. The fact that it emphasizes what an ass Thomas’s absentee father is and involves greedy assholes getting a clever legalistic comeuppance helps, too.
I made Hugo the Flame Champion, because that’s the “canon” choice and in theory the most story-appropriate one, but in retrospect, I should have picked Chris. Suikoden heroes are typically in the mold of the young boy with some fighting skill thrust into a situation beyond his abilities and endowed with great power, who rises to the challenge via the power of friendship. That’s totally Hugo. Geddoe, as the world-weary hero of the previous generation with a preexisting band of longtime dedicated companions, is better suited for a lieutenant role regardless. He never struck me as the type to step up to be the Flame Champion, especially given that he was already carrying a True Rune. Chris really was the most logical choice, though: The silver maiden is already a well-established leader which she earned through talent, hard work and dedication. The grasslanders follow Hugo because of who his mother is; the knights follow Chris because of who she is.
Regarding the ending: Luc really is “Woobie, destroyer of worlds,” isn’t he? (The bonus chapter from his viewpoint really makes a lot of things clear.) He’s a clone created to hold a True Rune on behalf of the Harmonian high priest, gifted with visions of world-wide conflict leading to a sterile and lifeless future, and driven to attempting suicide-by-genocide by destroying his rune. The really sad part is that his desperate attempt to screw destiny is obviously exactly what he’s destined to do—if he just wanted to by free of the rune (and associated immortality), he could give it away or seal it. If he wanted to die, the rune doesn’t protect him from death via violence. And if he really wanted to protect the world from the future he foresaw, he could have told people about it. Really, his motivations don’t make logical sense. He was being driven on irrational emotion (depression, really) by the true runes as part of their machinations, to bring together the stars of destiny and shape events in Zexen, the Grasslands and Harmonia. Which makes me wonder if the future he saw was a lie; how much of a struggle there actually is among the true runes (there could be two sides, 27 sides, more than 27 sides when you consider the fragmented true runes, or no sides at all); and how much agency humans in the Suikoden world have, even when the 108 stars of destiny come together.
Overall: Bolster your patience and play this game. Actually, if you’re new to the series, I think you should play 1, 2, 3 and 5 in order. The game system is generally fun and a bit of variety from standard rpg fare; the characters are interesting and often well-developed (especially if you have a favorite and want to read fanfic—there’s a lot of Suikoden minor character fanfic); and the overall plots and world-building are pretty awesome. (Just bring a walkthrough if you want the best endings. Some of the 108 stars of destiny hide really well.)
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Date: 2013-04-24 03:51 pm (UTC)Re: ...
Date: 2013-04-24 09:18 pm (UTC)